From Pentecostal to Grace

Oh hi, good morning, my name is Andrew.
I just have a couple of questions for you.
I've been listening to your podcast, Truth Time Radio, and the only way I can describe it isthat it's pretty much dismantled everything that I have understood about Christianity.
You know, I come from a Canadian Pentecostal background and went to Pentecostal Bible
College, grew up in church, and things just were making a lot of sense when you were talking about lordship salvation, and the difference between forgiveness and salvation, and those happening at two different times.
I like that and it makes sense.
However, when I kept listening to your podcast, the idea that God doesn't speak to us anymore kind of rattled me, and I feel a little bit like, how do I walk out the theology that you're sharing on a day-to-day basis?
Because it's not just logical for me, it's also emotional, and God was a place of refuge in times of emotional storms, and not really sure how to look at this anymore. Anyway, if you are able to call me back, I think that that would be appreciated, and considering all the things that are being shared to help a brother how to walk this out, I think you owe me that, at least.
If you don't mind, call me back when you have a chance.
My number is 1-9-0-5...
Okay, a voice message from the mailbox here at the office from Andrew, and now here's the call back.
Truth Time Radio.
Oh, hi.
Yeah.
It's Andrew.
I'm just calling you back.
You're calling from Canada, correct?
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah, I'm in Western Ontario.
The biggest city closest to me is called London, Ontario.
How did you find the program?
Oh, that's a funny story.
I actually was looking for some information about Kat Kerr, and I went to Spotify, and I found your podcast, and I think her name was in the title of it.
So I had a listen, and I initially was impressed with some of the very catchy lines that were used, such as, you know, you only get two educations, the one you give
yourself and the one you're given.
And that really stuck with me.
I thought, that's really wise.
I really like that.
And so I continued listening, and I really resonated with things that, you know, I have an evangelical background.
I'm a Pentecostal, and in Canada, I think that means something a little bit different than it does in the States, but similar to probably Assemblies of God.
So I have, you know, evangelical theology, and even on the charismatic side, I would say.
And the truth is that there is legalism that has crept into our churches, and I really appreciated your perspective on that.
My call came out of what happened with me was I was listening to your podcast, and I was so appreciative of the truth that I was receiving from it, but I felt like I started to dry up, like, spiritually.
And I was just kind of scratching my head going, like, how could I just have gotten this download of truth, and had been listening to, you know, many of your podcasts and teachings, and really enjoying it, and getting a lot of clear teaching, and obviously looking to the Word myself, and seeing that it lines up, and having these really great, like, epiphanies and aha moments of truth and clarity, and then spiritually feeling rather dry.
And I was having a hard time sort of bridging the gap there.
And so that's sort of when I wanted to call and sort of ask what you thought about that.
Well, perhaps it's when we come from the basis of what feeling spiritual is, and I guess that does deal a lot, especially when you come from the charismatic arenas,
which I am from myself, comes a lot from feelings.
And so we put our feelers out there, and we look for things to feel correct.
So then you're getting this download of truth, as you put it, and you're not feeling what you were taught that you should feel, when in actuality, the truth is not about our feelings.
The truth is about what thus saith the Lord, and us lining up, and just finally agreeing, and standing on God's Word.
So, God is still our refuge, but how is He our refuge?
And a lot of times we were taught that it was through emotionalism, and again, our feelings, and how our day went, and our daily circumstances.
But He's our refuge in His Word.
That's what we have now.
That's what we stand on, His Word, not through the outward manifestations, such as
miracles, signs, and wonders that were for the nation Israel.
When we go to our Bible, when we learn to rightly abide the Word of Truth, we find that those were for the nation of Israel, before they even had a completed Word. However, for us, the miracle has already taken place.
So we're on the other side of the miracle.
We're on this side of the cross.
It's over here that our Apostle, the Apostle Paul, said that he was made a minister according to the dispensation of God, which is given to him for us.
And it was to fulfill the Word of God.
That's something Israel did not have.
They did not have the fulfillment of the Word of God.
The Bible was still being written. Paul's revelatory information, he got the revelation of the mystery.
Well, that was still in the future, hadn't happened.
So they didn't have a fulfilled Word of God, such as you and I, Andrew.
Yeah, and I can appreciate that.
And I would say I am learning the difference between going by feeling, whereas the Word instructs us to go by faith.
So there's definitely some lessons for me to dig into a little bit.
Things that happen in the Bible, the outward expressions were for the Jews who required signs.
They were an adulterous generation who had a hard time believing.
So the Lord had to give them signs.
But for you and I, we've been instructed to walk by faith and not by those outward signs.
Therefore, that's a totally different platform, a totally different administration, and a completely different economy that we're under.
Paul wrote, he said, the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now, those two words, they're real important, but now is made manifest to his saints, to whom God would make known the riches of his glory and the mystery among the Gentiles.
That's you and I.
And he goes on to say, which is, now this is the mystery, which is Christ in you, Andrew, Christ in you.
That's the hope of glory.
What mystery Paul was speaking about there is that among us, the Gentiles, Christ indwells us.
That's our hope of glory.
See, David didn't have that.
And there's where we have to rightly divide the word of truth.
David did not have this indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
That's why in Psalm 52, David said, Lord, take not thy Holy Spirit from me.
Why did David say that?
Because the Holy Spirit could come and go as he pleases.
Not so today.
It's different.
The believer is permanently indwelt by him.
And I know if you're talking about coming from the assemblies of God, you've probably
been taught that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you can actually lose that, lose your salvation.
I don't—so I would liken the Pentecostal Church in Canada to the assemblies of God, just because that's probably the most—that was the closest thing that I think
is what would be the equivalent in the U.S.
Because I know sometimes the word Pentecostal can—some Americans, when you hear Pentecostal, they think that you're oneness, oneness Pentecostal, you know, Jesus only, you don't believe in the Trinity.
No, no, no, we don't believe that.
We have sound doctrine.
You know, our fundamental statement of truth is quite sound, but the legalism can creep in in sort of the application.
What is the doctrine of salvation?
How are you saved?
Well, well, of course, the Pentecostal assemblies of Canada, even though I'm not really big on denominations, but that's what I affiliate to, and that's the church that I'm a part of, you know, I do believe in, you know, the salvation message that you share in your podcast 100%.
And I also—and to answer your question, I do believe they have more of the traditional, you know, when you repent of your sin, and, you know, sin separates us from God, but, you know, through Christ, we, you know, we walk over the bridge and receive salvation.
And so when you are repentant, then you are forgiven, and then you are saved.
I do believe that's what they have in their doctrine.
I don't agree with it.
I was very surprised by when you shared that the sin of the world was forgiven when Christ died on the cross.
I mean, like, you wouldn't believe my reaction.
I just paused it, and I was like, oh my gosh, like, this makes the good news good news.
It was revolutionary for me, I'm telling you.
And that all you have to do is believe?
I mean, like, my goodness, it's really changed the way that I think about sharing the gospel with others, because it's so simple.
You don't have to sit them down and say, okay, do you have an hour and a half for me to go through the entire, you know, history of mankind?
It's simplified it, and it brought it to be the fact that it's such good news because it's simple.
And I just really appreciate that.
But to answer your question, I do believe that the Pentecostal sermons of Canada has more of that, I would call it a traditional salvation theology.
I feel that there is a lot of confusion.
You know, a lot of friends that I have, when I ask them, you know, what are our commandments?
What are we to follow?
And they will, nine times out of ten, they will say, oh, love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.
And I say, wrong.
What do you mean?
I said, well, okay, first of all, is Jesus telling them that's what they're to do? No.
Jesus is only answering a question when they said, what's the greatest commandment? And they go, oh.
And then I go, well, secondly, here's something else that I just learned.
Jesus is talking to the Jews.
Even if he was giving them this commandment, he's talking to the Jews.
So where do we receive our instructions from Paul?
And they go, hold on, can you repeat that?
They go, I think I lost it for a second.
Like, it's so ingrained that that is, you know, that's what they measure themselves on every day is, did I love the Lord my God with all my heart, with all my soul, with all my strength today?
Oh, man. Oh, man, did I measure up?
I don't know.
Ah, man.
I don't think I did.
You know, I cut that guy off in traffic, and I did this, and I did that, and they just walk around defeated, and they walk around discouraged.
Yes, sir.
That's correct.
Because they're looking at their self. That's correct.
Get 2 Corinthians chapter 5 for me.
But listening to you there, you're so correct.
And, you know, they do these things, and they have this attitude with total
disregard to scripture.
Because in the 14th chapter of the first letter that Paul wrote the Corinthians, he said, if any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge
that the things that I write are the commandments of the Lord.
So, if they want to follow the commandments today, in this current economy, under this administration, just the same as if an presidential administration changes, the economy, the rules, the day-to-day walk, things are different.
And to not recognize that and to stay in the last president's administration will make you look and sound foolish.
So, we have to first recognize what administration we're in.
We're under the direction of the Apostle Paul.
Paul says to follow me as I followed Christ.
So, he said the things I write are the commandments of the Lord.
So, what should we be following?
The things that he wrote?
Yep, absolutely.
And in 2nd Timothy 2:7, Paul also says, consider what I say, and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
So, we have to get into the epistles of Paul before we can start to get understanding of what's going on today in this current administration of grace.
Now, you're there in 2 Corinthians chapter 5.
Start reading in about verse 18 for me, and just continue to read there.
Okay.
Now, all things are of God who has reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ
reconciling the world to himself, thank you, Lord, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Now, right there, you know, here are your friends.
Did I walk this out?
Did I do this?
Did I keep this commandment?
And on and on it goes.
Meanwhile, the bigger, the greater question is, did you offer them the word of reconciliation?
That is their only hope.
But again, when we're, when we're drawn inwardly, and we're looking in the mirror, we're looking at self all the time.
It's, did I do this?
Am I pleasing to the, did I, did I, did I live up?
Did I perform?
No.
What about the person who is lost and without salvation?
Did you offer them the word of reconciliation?
And see, Andrew, this is what the religious system has done.
It has twisted this thing upside down, bottom side up, to where we're not even doing what we're called to do each and every day of our life here.
Yeah, absolutely.
And that has been very helpful for me.
You know, yeah, absolutely.
And so you're saying, instead of them looking at their own, how good did I do?
And what did I do wrong?
They should be looking at, did I share the good news?
Once you learn that, and that God is not sitting around judging you for your sins and how you lived up and how you performed.
And if you are performing at a certain level, then and only then are you able to go and start sharing this good news with others.
Until that time comes in a man's life, he wakes up evaluating himself all the time. And he does that so much that he's so consumed with self that he forgets others.
That's how it works.
And Satan is, he's really pleased that people don't know this.
And we're of a lordship salvation.
And we're always waking up, evaluating, looking at ourselves, and then at the end of the day, counting and measuring and making sure we lived up to God's expectation.
No, his expectation is that we have faith and that we believe that Christ lived.
He did all the living up to for us.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And that is remarkably freeing.
And I know for me, I'm a super practical person.
And so when I, I always think, well, how does this play out practically?
And of course, it certainly takes all the pressure off and it puts all the glory to Christ where it belongs.
And then there's an aspect of walking it out that I think a little bit of clarification can help.
And I think sometimes the question can come up, even in my own life, is we do have an active relationship with the Lord, right?
I know you mentioned in one of your podcasts, and it troubled me a little bit that it sounded like you were saying that the gifts of the Holy Spirit had ceased.
And I was troubled by that because I thought, well, you know, like the five-fold ministry has ceased.
You know, has, you know, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, has that ceased?
Like, what does that mean?
Okay.
Turn, if you will, to 1 Corinthians chapter 13, verse 8.
Start reading right in there for me.
Yeah.
Love never fails, but whether there are prophecies, they will fail.
Whether there are tongues, they will cease.
Now these are gifts, right?
Yeah.
Okay, keep reading.
Whether there is knowledge, it will vanish.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
Okay. What do you get out of that?
It's hard to not just think with the way that I've always thought about it, which was
if you do any of these things without love, they're going to be of no use.
Right.
And I guess more precisely, I'm saying these things shall cease.
They shall fail.
And then there's a timeline, Andrew.
See if you can see that timeline of when these things will fail and these things will cease and start to vanish.
When that which is perfect has come.
There you go.
My question to you, when would that be, according to what you've been taught?
Well, to be honest, I don't remember the last time this verse was preached in my church, but my New King James Study Bible has a note in it that says that it refers to the completion of God's purposes after the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yeah.
But that's a note, and that's a man, and then you buy another Bible, and they have another note by another man, and you kind of see where that goes.
But when we compare Scripture with Scripture, let me get you to turn to Colossians chapter 1.
When we compare Scripture to Scripture and begin to rightly divide the word of truth, see the Bible is axiomatic.
It's its own dictionary.
It answers itself.
So let's just compare Scripture here.
Okay, Colossians chapter 1?
Yeah, and look at verse 25 and read that for me.
I now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ for the sake of his body, which is the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God, which was given to me for you to fulfill the word of God.
There you go.
Paul, what he was given, the revelations he was given, fulfilled the word of God. Again, we started out our conversation talking about David and all the people of old
who did not have this advantage, Andrew, that you and I have.
That's why they needed all of these things.
They needed all of these signs, all of these supernatural interactions from the
heavens that you and I do not need because they've already been established.
They're not being established.
The word is not being written.
The prophets are not getting visions and revelations from the Lord and writing the Bible.
No, it's completed and there is your apostle Paul.
He fulfilled the word of God.
So the last revelations given to mankind, the last interaction, supernaturally speaking, was given to the apostle Paul and there is no need for it anymore.
So, back to that verse, 1 Corinthians chapter 13, verse 8.
Let me get you to do one more thing.
Before we go there, this will kind of wrap this up.
2 Corinthians chapter 12.
2 Corinthians chapter 12, and this will tie right in with this.
Okay, I'm there. Verse 7, read that for me.
And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations.
Okay, let's stop right there. Paul was given more than one revelation from the Lord. He had more than one encounter.
Remember, he didn't walk with the earthly Christ.
He met the glorified Christ on the road to Damascus who came to him in visions and in revelations.
And now we have to the church, the body of Christ, 13 letters that keeps us stable if we'll walk in them.
They tell us about our salvation and our day-to-day marching orders.
He was given an abundance of these revelations.
He's written them down.
Now go back to verse Corinthians chapter 13 and read verse 8 again for me.
We'll tie all this in.
Colossians 1, we just read, he fulfilled the word of God.
If you see a prophet on television or on YouTube who says the Lord told him, you can stop right there.
He didn't tell him anything.
Because if he did, then Paul lied, the Bible's not been fulfilled, and the prophet also needs to add whatever the Lord told him to the Bible.
That's how we got the Bible.
People being told what to write down.
And the Bible is complete, therefore we don't need any more messages.
And again, if we do, why aren't you writing those down and adding them to Scripture
just like all the other prophets did?
1 Corinthians 13, we're back to our original verse here.
I'm there.
Okay, read verse 8 again.
Where there are prophecies, they will fail. Where there are tongues, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
There we go.
Let's tie this in, compare the verses.
Not look at a man's commentary.
When we compare the Scriptures, we just saw in 2 Corinthians 12, that Paul was given an abundance of revelations that fulfilled, completed God's word.
Now we have it in written form.
So that which is perfect has come.
Notice there Paul says, knowledge.
What does he say about knowledge?
It will cease.
Now, are you still learning things today?
Of course you are, and so am I.
So what knowledge could Paul be talking about?
This Bible.
It's over.
It's done.
It's complete.
It was fulfilled through the abundance of revelations given to the apostle Paul.

It does make sense.
It does make sense.
So for example, I had a couple over yesterday, and we just had some time of worship,
and really sensed the loving presence of God, and felt the Lord impress on my heart
some of the truths of Scripture as to, we're adopted into the family of God, and I felt this, the heart of God as a father that adopts a child, and sets up their room, and provides for them, and is there for them, and is, you know, whatever they need, they can ask, you know.
And so, not necessarily like a, you know, a strictly knowledge or, you know, reading exercise, but more of an experiential thing that I have to say is of great value, you know.
Feelings, experiences, and there's nothing wrong.
God give us our feelings.
Our feelings are awesome.
But I'm just trying to follow you.
Give me an example of what you are saying here.
Be a little bit more specific, please.
Has the experiential aspect of God ceased in your study of the Word?
Well, we have His Word.
How you feel about that, and how I feel about that, that's fine.
There's nothing wrong with experiencing.
I experienced the greatest feelings ever before in my life after learning this truth. And in my daily reading of Scripture, I experience all kinds of feelings when I think about things.
But are you saying right there at that moment in time, God is supernaturally giving you a feeling?
Then there's where we would have to part ways.
I don't even understand why we would need that.
We have feelings.
He gave us that from the beginning.
And our feelings would follow the truth.
That's great.
Nothing wrong with that.
Our experiences, if I experience something after reading the truth, after worshiping, as you said, after being within a group of people, nothing wrong with that.
Okay. Okay. Okay.
And I guess that was my question, was, you know, when we read something like, you know, in Hebrews, you know, it's like, you know, we can approach the throne of grace,
you know, and find, you know, mercy and grace in our time of need.
I mean, like, you know, this is a God who does appeal to our emotions, who does understand that we have needs, and he does desire to love us, not just teach us, but also love us, right?
And so that's what I was sort of wondering was, if the gifts have ceased, has the Holy Spirit stopped ministering to us on an emotional level at all?
Well, if you don't have the Word, and if you didn't have the Word, you would get no dealing with the Holy Spirit, because that's who wrote this Word, that's who wrote the book.
Man's hands was just man's hands.
The Holy Spirit wrote the book.
So any kind of experience you have while reading this Word, and while understanding this Word, while believing this Word, while accepting this Word, is an experience with the Holy Spirit.
Uh-huh, okay.
It's when we step out of that, that then there's trouble.
Yeah, when we get away from God's Word, absolutely, absolutely, Andrew, then there's trouble.
We invite all kinds of doctrinal error in, and then our feelings and then our experiences are coming from a place of error.
Yes, yes.
And about the Hebrews thing, approaching the throne of grace, you know, Hebrews was written to Hebrews, that's not a Pauline epistle, and we don't have to approach
any throne.
We are already seated in heavenly places, so we're not approaching nothing, we're not looking to gain entrance anywhere, get closer to God.
We can't get any closer, He indwells us.
There's no getting closer to God, there's no getting away from God.
You may feel like, and now we're back to feelings again, you may feel like you're not as close to God as you once were, but not according to this mystery, Christ in you, the hope of glory.
We're sealed unto that day of redemption.
Has that day came yet?
No, it has not.
We're sealed.
Holy Spirit's
with you all the time.
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I know as one preacher said it, he said, our standing before God never changes.
Even though you feel far from God, your standing before Him never changed.
That's right, that's right.
He's correct.
How I stand with God, well, I'm in Christ.
So when God looks at me, who does He see?
I'm in Christ, Christ is in me.
So my standing cannot change. Now my day-to-day state, my state of mind, that's why Paul says, renew your mind daily.
Why?
Because your state of mind may change, your experiences may change, your feelings may change, but your position that you have in Christ is secure, it's in the heavenlies, you're already seated, your conversation is already there.
We just have to one day join up with it.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And I know that I'm just, I'm processing everything that I'm learning, and you know, wanting my experience to not stray away from the Scriptures, but that they are in line, and yeah, and just to be able to make it, you know, to make it my own,
you know?
So there's sort of this learning curve and sort of some things that I was, you know,
probably thought that I'm like, wait a minute, how does this line up with Scripture?
So I appreciate you just sort of taking some time and sharing some of the Biblical references, and I wrote all of them down so I can revisit them.
So it is very helpful, and I really do appreciate your time.
And by the way, I go to a different church than I have for the last 13 years.
The last four months I've been, I moved, and so I'm part of a new church, and I'm not
hearing any legalism.
I'm hearing a really good, solid message, so I'm happy about that.
But I know for the last 13 years, it's been this, you know, let's repent.
Like, let's repent of our sin, you know?
And oh, if anyone here wants to receive salvation, then pray a prayer to be forgiven of your sin.
And even, you know, I pick up, even yesterday, I was at this church doing a little
soup kitchen kind of thing, helping them out, and there was some tracts there, and I picked one of them up, and sure enough, it's, you know, sin separates us from God, and, you know, receive forgiveness of your sin, and you'll be reconciled to God.
This is all a ploy to get you into a building.
If you are under the impression that you have sin still needing to be taken care of,
and they tell you that you can do that in their church, you can come down to this altar, you can come here and say a prayer, then that's how you get your sins taken care of until the next time, until next Sunday, and then you have some more sins you need to take care.
The problem is, if they would have told the truth to begin with, you would still want to go to that building and be with like-minded people who are there for all the right reasons.
You see, if they would have taught that the sins were dealt with, but we come together to edify, to build up, and uplift, and to further our understanding of doctrine so we can go back out those doors into the world and continue to preach this word of reconciliation, then there would still be a need to come to that building. That's their whole purpose.
They want to get you to the building, and they've developed this wrong way to do so, which is to get you to come there to get your sins taken care of instead of telling you your sins were already taken care of.
That's right, that's right.
And I know this was just a tract by, you know, Nave Press.
This is their best attempt at explaining the gospel, but I don't think that they've really come to the understanding that, you know, you've really helped shed light on, you know.
They haven't really come to the realization that, yeah, you don't get your sins forgiven, you know, you get saved, right?
And they think that's the same thing.
It's lordship salvation.
I think if they were to hear this, you know, I think it's the best kept secret that I've ever heard.
People say they believe the gospel, but then they say, well, you have to believe something to get your sins forgiven.
Well, they really don't understand the gospel, because nowhere in 1 Corinthians 15 is it said that you can be saved by getting your sins forgiven.
No, Paul is saying your sins have been forgiven, just the same as Christ has risen. We're not waiting for him to rise, and we're not waiting for our sins to be forgiven. He's giving you a proclamation of something that's already happened.
Your sins were forgiven.
Christ has risen, and your belief in that is what saves you.
It doesn't make either of those take place or happen at the time you believe it.
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah, it's a big difference.
It's something that I'm still sort of wrapping my head around, and I get it.
And when I heard it, when I heard you share that, I mean, I jumped up and down.
I'm like, wow, that's amazing.
It's beautiful, because righteousness is what gets you into heaven, not forgiveness.
Forgiveness happened at the cross, but no one was made righteous at the cross of Christ, not a soul.
No one was justified at the cross of Christ, not one person.
The world was forgiven for their sins because of him.
We have nothing to brag about, nothing to offer up.
A blood sacrifice was needed.
A blood sacrifice was given.
So the sin issue is off the table.
The wages of sin is death.
Christ died that death.
So there's no more wages being owed for our sins, but we have to have imputed righteousness placed in our account.
That's what justifies us, Andrew.
Hey, brother, it's been a joy talking to you, and I invite you to call me anytime you would like, any questions that you would have.
You're very knowledgeable, Andrew, and I'm glad that you're, I'm glad to see you, brother, growing in grace, and just continue on your journey, man.
Stay in the word.
Test everything you hear.
Test everything I tell you.
Test every commentary, and just keep on going for the Lord, brother.
Amen. Amen.
Well, thank you, Trey, and bless you for your ministry and your work, and if I do have any more questions, I'll be sure to reach out.
Trey, thank you so much.
Thank you, sir.
Bye-bye.
All right.
Bye-bye.