The following is from LeighAnn, who said she has found quote "scriptures in Paul's epistles that easily debunk this man-made idea that EVERYONE already has forgiveness for all their sins." So let's have a look and see if her claim can be supported.
Listener: Clearly, in Eph 5:3-6 and in Colossians 3:5-6, Paul is teaching that the WRATH OF GOD COMETH upon the children of disobedience BECAUSE OF THEIR SIN(S).
TTR: What is clear is you are not paying attention to context and apparently haven't spent much time in the book of Romans. Which has resulted in now having to cherry-pick verses to prove your belief, rather than doing the work necessary to see if these things be so (Acts 17:11.)
Let's look carefully at these verses and see if we can glean some understanding in light of (not in spite of) what the Apostle Paul writes elsewhere. After all, he isn't going to contradict himself.
Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Interestingly enough, those who are consistently screaming about how Paul only wrote to and about “saved people” do not seem to be applying their own rules, which they claim is the key to understanding Paul's letters.
“let it not be named once among you, as becometh SAINTS”
hmmm, Paul is telling SAVED PEOPLE not to do these things. Now, you'd think the logical conclusion from the standpoint of believing that "sins weren't forgiven on the cross" would be -that SAVED PEOPLE have the “wrath of God” coming on them if they participate in these abhorrent activities that Paul lists here. That is, of course, if you pay attention to whom Paul is speaking to while attempting to maintain the false narrative that "sins are only forgiven when you believe they are."
But rather than paying any mind to the fact that Paul is instructing already saved members of the Body of Christ about how and how not to BEHAVE – the 'Limited Forgivers' are zeroing in on the particular list of sins that Paul names off here. -Which begs the question: What about the sins he doesn't list?
“Because of these things”: whoremonger, unclean person, covetous idolater
-Seems we have a few sins missing, doesn't it? There are more sins by just breaking the 10 commandments than Paul listed here. Yet Paul only talks about these things, without even mentioning Unbelief.
Why would he leave that out? Could it perhaps be that his audience was being instructed on their walk as believers, rather than being warned that if they don't BECOME believers then they will incur God's wrath for doing such things?
It should be noted that nowhere in Paul's epistles does he say that a (saved or unsaved) person's sins will send them to Hell. And although some “popular Pauline preachers” will attach the tagline of “How to get your sins forgiven” at the end of their sermon – Paul never gives that instruction.
How does one claim to be Pauline, and then proceed to “give instructions” on something that Paul, himself, never gave the first instruction on? We are told to follow Paul as he followed Christ, not follow Paul as our favorite “bible teacher” does. The more teachers you heap unto yourself, the more of man's wisdom you put between you and your Apostle – the further away you get from Christ.
Let that sink in.
Now, let's look at the other passage in question – which simply mirrors the previous one:
Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Here we have the same instruction, written in the same context: the believers walk, the behaviors they should avoid.
This isn't hard to understand, for those who pay attention not only to what Paul says, but for what reason he says it (context.)
MORTIFY your members which are upon the earth.
Anyone ever read through Romans 6? Paul explains how to do this in a very thorough manner.
But rather than pay attention to context and understand the spirit in which these verses are written, some want to jump directly to these “things” which, again, Paul makes a clear statement of fact – are the cause of the wrath of God on the children of disobedience.
Why are “wrath of God” and “children of disobedience” suddenly terms of interest? Many incorrectly assume that the “wrath of God” could never mean anything except “going to Hell” and that the “children of disobedience” are unsaved people with the sins that Christ paid for in full - somehow still resting on those who commit such things.
I will submit to you, that IF that is the case, then we are ALL in serious trouble: saved and unsaved alike. Because, according to that logic – ANYONE who commits sin is headed straight to Hell. According to this passage, read in light of "forgiveness occurring only for those who believe" – you're either given the green light to sin so that grace would abound (God forbid.) Or we're all just going to Hell, because we've all missed the mark and will continue to do so, as long as we are in these fleshly bodies. Paul is saying TO BELIEVERS that children of disobedience commit these things, and historically, God's wrath has been upon them because of it.
AGAIN, if these sins send a person to hell, then YOU are in trouble too.
But rather than attempting to thwart the preaching of the gospel, and trying to hinder the ministry of reconciliation by using Paul's own words against him – why not go to Romans 1, which will tell you HISTORICALLY who the children of disobedience are, and why their disobedience incurred God's wrath on them? -In essence, why there was a need for a Savior to come and die for sins in the first place.
Read from your apostle the ways that God poured his wrath out upon Israel, for disobeying Him.
“Children of disobedience” were estranged from God in time past. Why? Because before the cross God WAS holding their disobedience against them. They WERE those whom God turned over to a reprobate mind. They were the uncircumcised in heart and ears. They were the idolators, covetous, evil, having inordinate affections which drew the wrath of God on them, repeatedly.
Read the many ways and times God's wrath was poured out upon those who opposed Him. These things (the ones that Paul lists) are the THINGS that have incurred God's wrath upon Israel throughout their history. God even issued divorcement upon them, and ceased to protect them at all.
“Because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience” is not a prophecy, it's a statement of fact. It points to the REASON for God's wrath upon Israel in time past.
Paul says, within the context of these very verses: “be ye thankful” (Colossians 3:15,) Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:20.)
This is reminding us to be THANKFUL that we are not estranged from God because of our sinfulness. -He's not mad at us.
Not because WE-BELIEVED, but because CHRIST-DIED.
He settled the sin account!
Paul is simply telling his audiences not to partake in the things that brought about God's wrath in the first place.
Mankind's condition in time past:
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Where we (who are saved) are in the "but now:" Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And don't let that “dead in sins” part throw you off concerning whether or not your sins were forgiven on the cross. We are still in the flesh until we get our new bodies. Romans 5-8 will tell you all about that. But as far as God is concerned, that sinful flesh and the acts committed in these dead bodies we are walking around in– are not being imputed to our accounts. Christ didn't die on the cross to save our flesh. That's why those of us who are saved get new bodies. The unsaved get to keep their sinful flesh.
Correcting your thinking on this will set you free & clear up a lot.
God isn't mad at the children of wrath right now. His wrath is not currently being poured out onto the children of disobedience. He's not imputing the world's sins, and instead, He is offering His Grace by giving us a chance to be HIS children by simply believing Him when He showed us what HIS forgiveness looks like - on the cross.
And that's good news!
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